hi guy's. in waiting for an inheritance to arrive ( and with it i'll build the 'brain of morbius' of all computers. i'll need everyone's help with that one) i did link to a model i was looking at in an earlier post http://www.d-a-l.com/help/showthread.php?t=54074 but as you know things never stand still in pc's so i'll come back later and ask for your help locating 'a man who can' hook me up with the state of the art rig.

anyway, my question is i have radeon x1650pro graphics card that i want to put into my old machine. i also need a new psu to power and cool it. is my motherboard (ms-6382) able to handle a 500 Watt ATX power supply?
i haven't gone any higher or really want to spend any more on the old girl. a guy in pc world told me that having a five year old computer is like having a twelve year old car. my spec's are

win xp pro
amd athlon 2000+
1024mb memory
2x 80 gb hd's

any help as always is much appreciated

mikey b

First question: What brand of PC are you upgrading? I ask that, generally, for anyone else reading this thread. Dell, eMachines, some Compaqs, etc., etc., use proprietary power supplies with proprietary pinouts and/or mounting limitations; this has caused untold number of headaches for those not in-the-know.

Second question: You have a MS-6382 MOBO, which is a micro-ATX form factor; what is your case? Tower? Mid/mini-tower? Slim-line? These are relevant questions when selecting a power supply.

As far as the question regarding the 500 watt output, it's always preferable to have more watts than needed, than less. Your power supply puts out only the necessary amount of juice that the system requires. If you have plans to SLI graphic cards, you would need, at minimum, 500 watts, preferably 600.

Of primary concern, when selecting a power supply, is the load; you should always select a power rating that leaves headroom over and above what the system will demand, or you will not be pleased with the life expectancy of said power supply.

And last, if not least, is the noise factor. Especially when building a system for multi-media applications, one should always spend a little more for a quiet power supply and a noise dampening case. I hope this helps.

If anyone else has a differing opinion, I am open to suggestions.

Doing it Dawggie style!

Thanks for replying so quickly KDawg. it is a Time computer that's probably running out of time actually. over the years it's had a few new bits here and there but nothing major. ( reasons being that i've been on long term sickness benefit following spinal surgery) the tower case measures 18"x17"x8" so i wouldn't want to spend too much more on it. i think, but i'm not sure as i haven't had the back off in a while, that it has a 350watt but please forgive me if that is wrong.

as for my next machine i will be asking and scouring the threads for the ultimate beast.

Fortunately, most new PCs made by the big makers no longer use proprietary PSU - too many consumers complained. Laptops are another story.

The best way to see if your current PSU is ATX or not is to look at the label. Since you motherboard is a microATX it will support any ATX power supply - that is, the connections and voltages will match. The motherboard does not care how much power the supply will supply, as long as it is enough. The computer draws what it needs, not what is available.

With your case being 8" thick, it sound like a mid tower - at any rate, it is not a microATX case, so just about any ATX PSU should fit that case just fine.

I agree with KDawg that noise is very important. The better power supplies are quieter.

However, that is not last, or least concern. You should consider getting a high efficiency PSU, one rated 80% or better. Some will have the 80 Plus logo. They cost more up front, but pay for themselves generally in about 1 year.

Use the eXtreme PSU Calculator Lite to determine your power supply unit (PSU) requirements. Plug in all the hardware you think you might have in 2 or 3 years (extra drives, bigger or 2nd video card, more RAM, etc.). Be sure to read and heed the notes at the bottom. I recommend you set Capacitor Aging to 30%, and if you participate in distributive computing projects (e.g. BOINC or Folding@Home), I recommend setting TDP to 100%. Research your video card and pay particular attention to the power supply requirements listed on your video card maker's website for your card. Then look for power supply brands listed under the "Good" column of PC Mechanic's PSU Reference List. Ensure the supplied amperage on the +12V rails of your chosen PSU meets the requirements of your video card. Don't try to save a few dollars by getting a cheap supply. Digital electronics, including CPUs, RAM, and today's advanced graphics cards, need clean, stable power. A good, well chosen supply will provide years of service and upgrade wiggle room.

what a super informative reply Digerati. thank you very much. but because i'm not overly technically minded it has left me feeling a bit overwhelmed. when i come to buying my new super duper computer i will refer to this post to help my machine maker put together maybe not the 'brain of morbius' but some sort of point and click device more suited to my ability ( er i'm a bit dim with all this techie stuff) but i have heard of these new water cooled things. maybe i'll try that route, i don't know. i will need a top spec machine capable of handling the latest games that's either with two cross-over cards or one top of the range one. it will also have to handle media centre tasks like streaming movies to my tv. i'll need someone from the UK pointing me towards the place to go. someone with a good reputation and some sort of back-up warranty. but until this money comes through i'm in limbo.

thanks also go to KDawg for advice offered.

adios

joey

here are my current psu facts.

Powerman
model no FSP250-60GTV(PF)
Ac input 230v 5a 50Hz
max output power 250v
DC output +3.3v
part number 3CMBP2500180
serial no S13401871R0

size 14cm x 15cm x 8.5cm

hope this helps

joey

I would advise against any sort or alternative cooling for now - water cooling should be left to the extreme overclocking enthusiast - to those who are more "technically minded", and to those who understand the severe risks - to ones health and safety, as well as to the electronics. When water cooling goes mainstream ( no pun intended), it may be practical, but it's not there yet. Too many things can go wrong that can result in almost instantaneous extreme over-heat conditions, and possible CPU and motherboard destruction! Not to mention, the danger of liquids hitting live electrical circuits. Remember, ANYTHING that plugs into the wall outlet can kill you. And finally, there have been reports of pretty nasty bacteria , mold, and fungus growth in neglected systems too.

Of course, these problems are all avoidable, but my point is a water cooled system is not a "set and forget" system. It requires a very disciplined, prolonged, preventive maintenance inspection routine - consistently for the 2 - 3 years, or for the life of the system (and the data on it). That gets old quick, yet as the water cooling parts (hoses, pumps, radiators, clamps, etc.) age, leaks may develop and so the inspection and maintenance requirements become even more critical!

Do note that you are asking your new computer to be a top performer in two hard to obtain taskings. A top game machine demands massive amounts of power, generates massive amounts of heat and huge demands for cooling. Fan noise is not a big concern in the gaming world. Remember, the CPU fan does more than pull air away from the CPU. It creates an air flow across, and provides necessary cooling for many other components. Water cooling cools only a few of the heat sensitive components inside the case. You still need air flow through the case.

However, in the home theater environment, audio and video processing can easily be handled by the on-board sound and graphics of one of the better integrated motherboards. You don't need a monster CPU or a monster graphics card to watch HDTV. In a HTPC, very low or no noise is the goal, while keeping heat under control. Not an easy task.

The purpose the computer case is twofold, house and cool the components inside.

A good, well designed case, one that, among other qualities, supports multiple 120mm (or larger) fans (preferably at least 1 in back exhausting hot air out - not counting the PSU fan, and one in front drawing cool air in) will last you through years of hardware upgrades. Typical budget ATX cases often only support one 80mm fan. The larger fans are desired because they move massive amounts of air, but at a lower RPM than smaller fans. This results in much less noise, an ever increasing problem with PCs considering the PSU already has one or two fans, there's the CPU fan, possibly a chipset cooling fan, and the graphics card may also have a fan going. That said, the better cases will isolate much of that internal fan noise, but case fan noise is directly emitted out the case. So, the better fans, of any size, have precision ball or liquid bearings and will have published noise specifications. The lower the dB level the better. However, beware the trade off - lower noise can also be achieved by lowering the rotation speeds. This is fine, but it naturally lowers the CFM (Cubic Feet/minute) of air flow and that will affect the fans ability to move heat out.

There are many good case makers - I like Antecs. Aluminum cases do NOT necessarily cool better than steel - a common misleading sales pitch. Cooling is all about air flow. Aluminum is lighter - good, but more flexible - bad. This means good aluminum cases must have adequate structural reinforcements - adding to their costs. Cases must be true and rigid. Cases that flex and warp are poorly designed and made, regardless the materials used as that puts undue stresses on the motherboard. And of course, fancy lights do nothing for performance, don't help the heat issue, draw some power and do nothing for performance (worth repeating). Besides, I tend to watch the monitors, not the computer case. JMHO. By the way, I will never get a case unless it has 120mm or larger front and rear case fan support, rolled cut metal edges, some sort of removable drive mount system - such as slides or removable drive bays, case switches and front USB ports up high and not down on the floor. And every new case I buy will have removable and washable air filters.

As for your PSU, as seen here, that is a 250W standard ATX supply. The ATX Form Factor standard requires ATX power supplies, cases, and motherboards to play well together - therefore, any ATX PSU (the most common) will physically fit in your case and it will support the necessary voltages and physical connections for ATX motherboards. However, 250W is on the low side, so you are wise to consider a new supply.

My advice is to get a new case to start. This will ensure you do not run into any of the proprietary issues with your current case KDawg was talking about. Understand that many case sellers "toss in" a power supply just to make the case sale. Or bundle in a PSU at a bargain price. These supplies are most often very low quality and not something your high-tech digital devices deserve. Once you determine your anticipated power needs, then choose a good PSU.

I personally think you should convert your existing PC into your home theater PC, then save your money and build a dedicated game machine. You can then network the 2 computers and use each one as a backup for the other. Again, JMHO.

wow. once again i'm bowled over by your wonderful response Digerati. I think I'll leave water cooled on the back burner for now. your right, water and electricity, HELLO. big fan, right. i don't know whether you went to my earlier post and was able to follow the link to the machine i was thinking of buying but that machine should be so cool man, i'm salivating just thinking about it now. this site assembles their own pc's so when i asked them if they could include a HDTV card they said that if i could find the one i wanted they would fit it for me and add the cost onto the build.

i do worry that my new psu might not fit the holes in my current case or are they pretty standard? i'd link you again to the one i was looking at (don't forget though that money, or the present lack of it drives my search) but i don't want to put the link in this open post in case it breaks any rules. these are the stat's

500 Watt ATX Low Noise PC PSU Power Supply Unit 500W
A different brand named item may be received of the same specification, but cosmetically different.

Item Details

ATX 500W Power Supply Unit. Ideal for AMD & Intel P4 systems. Low noise high efficiency Power Supply Unit, with Over Power and Short Circuit Protection. Brand New, Retail Box Packaging. Complete with a full 12 months warranty.

Item Specification

500W ATX PSU

Fan for quiet running

500 Watts Continuous power rating
High efficiency and Low Noise

Standard ATX specification
Over Power Protection
Short Circuit Protection
100% full load burn-in
1.5Kv Hi-Pot Test Pass, FCC CE approved
2 x Internal 12cm Cooling Fan

AC input
230X, 50-60Hz

Dimensions:
150 x 86 x 140 (mm)

PSU connectors:
4 x Standard four pin power molex
1 x floppy power
1 x AMD/P4 power
1 x ATX 20/24 pin Motherboard powe

it looks about the same. i'll go for it. a new case would be nice but that will just have to wait.

thanks again for the awesome help and info. i've taken it all on board.

joey

i do worry that my new psu might not fit the holes in my current case or are they pretty standard?

Pretty standard? No - there are exact standards for mounting/screw hole placement, as established by the ATX Form Factor. The standards apply to ATX PSUs, motherboards, cases, internal drives, plugs, connectors, shapes and sizes. The only concern I would have now with your current PSU is how it is secured to the case. If the maker used the standard screws, then that supply should be secured to the case back panel with 4 small screws and you should have no problems. If the computer maker used rivets, then you would have to drill them out, or buy a new case.

500W is normally plenty for most people, but it is really about the current on the +12V rail(s) that matters the most. Then stability. I would much rather have a 450W Antec supply than a 550W no-name generic.

While I certainly understand budget constraints and appreciate your position, I like to put it this way when it comes to quality vs. budget power supplies:

You wouldn't put cheap, no-name, generic fuel in your car, would you? Okay, you might, but would you then expect it run at peak performance? A car engine can miss a beat and keep running. Not so with digital electronics.

So, you need to ensure you are feeding your computer good, clean, solid power. A good PSU is an investment in that will help ensure long life for the critical (and even more expensive) components it supports.

The below UK retail sites have been used and recommended by UK posters. Although I believe them to be reputable, I have no personal experience with any of them. Therefore, this list is provided for research and comparison only.

Arbico
AriaPC
Dabs
Misco
Novatech
OcUK
PCNextday
PCWorld
SaverStore
Scan
Tekheads
TheCoolingShop

I note Tekheads has the TT 470W for £36.43 including VAT or a very nice Hiper 530W for only £39.95 with VAT.

And while I have the floor, I'll plug in one of my new canned texts and say again: "All computers need to be on a good UPS." EVERY computer system (and any other high-tech and expensive electronics device) should be protected with a good uninterruptible power supply (UPS). A surge protector is nothing more than a fancy and expensive extension cord! An UPS is often called a battery backup, but backup power is only a minor function, the "icing on the cake", of a good UPS.

A "good" UPS comes with AVR, automatic voltage regulation. AVR provides MUCH greater protection over even the best surge protectors because it regulates or conditions the power before it is fed to your computer's power supply.

A surge and spike protector merely chops (clamps) off the excess voltage. Picture a sine-wave with the tops of the peaks whacked off. These devices do that well, but sacrifice themselves in the process. The excess power from surges and spikes is typically absorbed by MOVs. The MOV then converts that energy into heat, which is then dissipated off.

MOVs are great at absorbing power, but not so great at letting heat go. And since "heat is the bane of all electronics", the MOVs age and lose their effectiveness faster than most other electronics devices. Often after just one "event", such a huge spike.

Batteries, on the other hand, can take a lot of abuse, over and over again. An UPS w/AVR uses intelligent electronics (and in some cases, the batteries) to almost instantly lower the voltage if too high, and, again with the help of the batteries, raise the voltage during power dips (opposite of spikes), sags (opposite of surges), brownouts (an extended sag). Raising low voltages is something no surge and spike protector can do, yet these events put great strain on your components too.

ANY TIME a high wattage appliance (washer, oven, toaster, refrigerator, coffee pot, dishwasher, electric clothes dryer, hair dryer, vacuum, etc.) cycles on and off, spikes, dips, surges, and sags are sent down the line. Individually, these events rarely do harm. Collectively and over time, these anomalies increase aging (wear and tear) on MOVs, power supplies and regulator circuits of the devices plugged in to them. And certainly, any appliance can, and often do, fail, causing even more, and potentially extreme, power events - which is where an UPS excels. So if you have any such appliance in your home, apartment building, or place of work, you need a good UPS with AVR.

A good 1000-1200VA UPS with AVR should have no problem supporting a computer pulling 500 watts, two LCD monitors, cable/DSL router, modem, PDA and an external drive. And that should easily give you 15 minutes of run time too, in the event of an unscheduled power outage.

The down side is the batteries need to be replaced about every 3 years and that can cost up to $100. The good news is the SLA (sealed lead acid) batteries are normally easy to find, and you can swap them out yourself. Don't toss the old ones in the trash - Radio Shack recycles all mine.

Also, when it's sub-freezing outside, a nice warm UPS makes a great foot warmer.

omg Digerati, that was the mother of all answers. your knowledge is on another level man. i will digest it at my leisure and let you get on and help someone else. i must have worn out your typing fingers on those last few posts. you deserve a gold medal.

gracias

joey